"A preterist response to futurism, with discussion encourage

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Re: "A preterist response to futurism, with discussion encou

Postby jcm » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:36 am

gcdonner wrote:
jcm wrote:If any one in truly interested in being fully enlightened on prophecy there will be a prophecy conference at Fairview reception center in Myerstown PA next month. It is being hosted by North Lebanon Mennonite Church. Some of the speakers are Carl Sensenig, Richard Herr, Elvin Horst, and Joe Brubacher.

If GC agrees to come and listen quietly I will pay for his transportation and extra blood pressure medication. :D

PS. If anyone is interested PM me your email.address and I can send you a copy of the program.

I expect they are all futurist in their exposition? I would love to come, but would be more interested in a conference where there was an overview of the 4 major viewpoints given, with Q&A following.
Having traversed the gamut of belief systems, at this point there isn't much reason for me to go back to square one. The time limitations of Jesus and the apostles have me stuck where I am. The closest I could come to moving at this point would be towards A-millennialism, which in itself is partial preterist.

Thanks for the offer though jcm. It would be great to take a trip back to PA, especially at YOUR expense. :mrgreen:


If you read the conditions and consider the fact that this will be radical futurism in its extreme then I think that you will admit that the greater expense may be yours. :mrgreen:

If you would come I will be glad to pick you up at the airport and drop you off at the conference then reverse the process when the conference is over. I will even throw in some free lodging, food, and fellowship but I will not agree to attend the conference with you. That would not be an acceptable bargain. :wink:

Carry on!
Culture is different things to different people... Culture is the shared values and behavior that knit a community together. It's the rules of the game; the unseen meaning between the lines in the rulebook that assures unity. William B. Renner
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Re: "A preterist response to futurism, with discussion encou

Postby gcdonner » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:17 pm

fred wrote:Do the scriptures have anything to say, or to prophesy of what would transpire AFTER AD 70? Down thru the 'day'.
The most simple picture of this time worlds existence, is when it's broken down into 'night and day'. With the 'dawn' or 'transition period' from AD 30 to AD 70. There are many valuable principals illustrated by this picture, which if we ignore, we are guilty of ignoring what God has illustrated to us in His creative works.

What happened during the 'night' was a time of 'shadows'. The night ran all the way up till AD 70. So the 'shadows' ran all the way up till then, also. At AD 70, the sun came up over the horizon, and the 'day' officially began.

A 'shadow' is NOT the reality. Only points to the reality. Everything you speak about, that took place during the OT, took place at 'night'. The Medes n Perisans coming in and bringing destruction took place. But, those events are 'shadows'. Meaning they have a greater fulfillment, which is their spiritual fulfillment. The literal fulfillment took place during the NIGHT time. The destruction of Jerusalem was a LITERAL event. So was also a 'shadow', or night time event.

It's also easy to see that 'night' is an allotted time period, and so is the 'day'. Another allotted time period. What happened at the 'end' of the allotted time period of the 'night'? Which are a 'shadow' of things to come.

During the 'dawning' period....the things that belong to 'night' need to be called 'night events'. The things that happened during that time period that belong to 'day' need to be called 'day events'.
One thing that's clear, is only literal Israel was 'judged' at AD 70. Titus and the Roman army were used to bring in that judgment.
Those living in the 'night' were judged according to living in a time of 'shadows'. Those of the 'day' will be judged according to living in the times of greater light, or during the 'son shining' era/time period.

Yes, the NT does speak of the time after AD70, notably, off the top of my head in the book of Hebrews and other places where it refers to "the age to come". I am not dismissing the literal application of apocalyptic language, only pointing out that the language itself need not be taken literally, as it often applies to happenings that are contemporary with the prophet, in most cases. A good illustration of this is Ps 18 (& II Sam 22) which the psalm interprets itself immediately. We need to remember that the NT period of the first century was still under the OC until AD 70, as the "birth pangs" were coming about and the deliverance into the kingdom took place as the OC was replaced with the NC.
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Re: "A preterist response to futurism, with discussion encou

Postby gcdonner » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:24 pm

Stoltz13 wrote:I think it is interesting how many read the Bible as if they were the intended audience and interpret it through modern-day events.  I wonder how differently a Jewish audience in the time of the early church would read the words and prophesies of Jesus. 

We are actually doubly blinded, none of us grew up in the context of the time Jesus spoke and can anyone claim to be as fluent in a language of a particular period than those in it?  I could say something today to an audience of my contemporaries and my point missed or not properly understood, so add thousands of years and then twice as many half-whitted commentaries in between to the confusion.  How is understanding possible but by a miracle?

I think the miracle less realized is how much understanding scripture is a miracle of the Holy Spirit.  No, the miraculous is never an excuse not to do our part, God often required ritual or a step of faith before performing miracles and so the ritual of study is important, but knowing it is God doing the doing or humility is first.  Even a sound mind is not something we did for ourselves, so we can claim nothing and must cling to our Lord and Savior instead.

Audience relevance is a big issue in the interpretation of scripture. In some places (mostly the OT) we automatically adjust our understanding to fit the context, but it seems when we get to the NT that we also just as automatically think it was written to "us" and transfer most all the personal pronouns to ourselves as we read. That has been enhanced by the teaching and preaching of many over the years, and was a strong influence in my early years as well. We do need to remember that we are reading someone else's mail and while there are timeless principles involved, much of the prophetic utterances have time/people specifics attached.
All the warnings that apply to fleeing Jerusalem when it is being attacked seem obvious enough, but then many turn around and put the rest of the warnings into their own context. We need to remember that the "you" of Matt 24, Mk 13, and Lk 21 was directed at 4 men specifically. Peter, James, John and Andrew...
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Re: "A preterist response to futurism, with discussion encou

Postby Stoltz13 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:14 pm

gcdonner wrote:
Stoltz13 wrote:I think it is interesting how many read the Bible as if they were the intended audience and interpret it through modern-day events.  I wonder how differently a Jewish audience in the time of the early church would read the words and prophesies of Jesus. 

We are actually doubly blinded, none of us grew up in the context of the time Jesus spoke and can anyone claim to be as fluent in a language of a particular period than those in it?  I could say something today to an audience of my contemporaries and my point missed or not properly understood, so add thousands of years and then twice as many half-whitted commentaries in between to the confusion.  How is understanding possible but by a miracle?

I think the miracle less realized is how much understanding scripture is a miracle of the Holy Spirit.  No, the miraculous is never an excuse not to do our part, God often required ritual or a step of faith before performing miracles and so the ritual of study is important, but knowing it is God doing the doing or humility is first.  Even a sound mind is not something we did for ourselves, so we can claim nothing and must cling to our Lord and Savior instead.

Audience relevance is a big issue in the interpretation of scripture. In some places (mostly the OT) we automatically adjust our understanding to fit the context, but it seems when we get to the NT that we also just as automatically think it was written to "us" and transfer most all the personal pronouns to ourselves as we read. That has been enhanced by the teaching and preaching of many over the years, and was a strong influence in my early years as well. We do need to remember that we are reading someone else's mail and while there are timeless principles involved, much of the prophetic utterances have time/people specifics attached.
All the warnings that apply to fleeing Jerusalem when it is being attacked seem obvious enough, but then many turn around and put the rest of the warnings into their own context. We need to remember that the "you" of Matt 24, Mk 13, and Lk 21 was directed at 4 men specifically. Peter, James, John and Andrew...

:like:

May God open our eyes where they need to be and may we live in the grace he has made available to us. I suppose there will be many things I will not know, still I do want to keep digging in and studying to learn what I can. I don't think any of us can do this without the help of God's Spirit.
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Re: "A preterist response to futurism, with discussion encou

Postby gcdonner » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:19 pm

Stoltz13 wrote:May God open our eyes where they need to be and may we live in the grace he has made available to us. I suppose there will be many things I will not know, still I do want to keep digging in and studying to learn what I can. I don't think any of us can do this without the help of God's Spirit.

AMEN and AMEN.
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Re: "A preterist response to futurism, with discussion encou

Postby fred » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:08 pm

gcdonner wrote:
fred wrote:Do the scriptures have anything to say, or to prophesy of what would transpire AFTER AD 70? Down thru the 'day'.
The most simple picture of this time worlds existence, is when it's broken down into 'night and day'. With the 'dawn' or 'transition period' from AD 30 to AD 70. There are many valuable principals illustrated by this picture, which if we ignore, we are guilty of ignoring what God has illustrated to us in His creative works.

What happened during the 'night' was a time of 'shadows'. The night ran all the way up till AD 70. So the 'shadows' ran all the way up till then, also. At AD 70, the sun came up over the horizon, and the 'day' officially began.

A 'shadow' is NOT the reality. Only points to the reality. Everything you speak about, that took place during the OT, took place at 'night'. The Medes n Perisans coming in and bringing destruction took place. But, those events are 'shadows'. Meaning they have a greater fulfillment, which is their spiritual fulfillment. The literal fulfillment took place during the NIGHT time. The destruction of Jerusalem was a LITERAL event. So was also a 'shadow', or night time event.

It's also easy to see that 'night' is an allotted time period, and so is the 'day'. Another allotted time period. What happened at the 'end' of the allotted time period of the 'night'? Which are a 'shadow' of things to come.

During the 'dawning' period....the things that belong to 'night' need to be called 'night events'. The things that happened during that time period that belong to 'day' need to be called 'day events'.
One thing that's clear, is only literal Israel was 'judged' at AD 70. Titus and the Roman army were used to bring in that judgment.
Those living in the 'night' were judged according to living in a time of 'shadows'. Those of the 'day' will be judged according to living in the times of greater light, or during the 'son shining' era/time period.

Yes, the NT does speak of the time after AD70, notably, off the top of my head in the book of Hebrews and other places where it refers to "the age to come". I am not dismissing the literal application of apocalyptic language, only pointing out that the language itself need not be taken literally, as it often applies to happenings that are contemporary with the prophet, in most cases. A good illustration of this is Ps 18 (& II Sam 22) which the psalm interprets itself immediately. We need to remember that the NT period of the first century was still under the OC until AD 70, as the "birth pangs" were coming about and the deliverance into the kingdom took place as the OC was replaced with the NC.


Ok..do you not also see where the NT era/time period is referred to as 'the day'?

1 Thess 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
What is the 'day star' but the coming up of the 'sun'.
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Re: "A preterist response to futurism, with discussion encou

Postby gcdonner » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:35 pm

fred wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
fred wrote:Do the scriptures have anything to say, or to prophesy of what would transpire AFTER AD 70? Down thru the 'day'.
The most simple picture of this time worlds existence, is when it's broken down into 'night and day'. With the 'dawn' or 'transition period' from AD 30 to AD 70. There are many valuable principals illustrated by this picture, which if we ignore, we are guilty of ignoring what God has illustrated to us in His creative works.

What happened during the 'night' was a time of 'shadows'. The night ran all the way up till AD 70. So the 'shadows' ran all the way up till then, also. At AD 70, the sun came up over the horizon, and the 'day' officially began.

A 'shadow' is NOT the reality. Only points to the reality. Everything you speak about, that took place during the OT, took place at 'night'. The Medes n Perisans coming in and bringing destruction took place. But, those events are 'shadows'. Meaning they have a greater fulfillment, which is their spiritual fulfillment. The literal fulfillment took place during the NIGHT time. The destruction of Jerusalem was a LITERAL event. So was also a 'shadow', or night time event.

It's also easy to see that 'night' is an allotted time period, and so is the 'day'. Another allotted time period. What happened at the 'end' of the allotted time period of the 'night'? Which are a 'shadow' of things to come.

During the 'dawning' period....the things that belong to 'night' need to be called 'night events'. The things that happened during that time period that belong to 'day' need to be called 'day events'.
One thing that's clear, is only literal Israel was 'judged' at AD 70. Titus and the Roman army were used to bring in that judgment.
Those living in the 'night' were judged according to living in a time of 'shadows'. Those of the 'day' will be judged according to living in the times of greater light, or during the 'son shining' era/time period.

Yes, the NT does speak of the time after AD70, notably, off the top of my head in the book of Hebrews and other places where it refers to "the age to come". I am not dismissing the literal application of apocalyptic language, only pointing out that the language itself need not be taken literally, as it often applies to happenings that are contemporary with the prophet, in most cases. A good illustration of this is Ps 18 (& II Sam 22) which the psalm interprets itself immediately. We need to remember that the NT period of the first century was still under the OC until AD 70, as the "birth pangs" were coming about and the deliverance into the kingdom took place as the OC was replaced with the NC.


Ok..do you not also see where the NT era/time period is referred to as 'the day'?

1 Thess 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
What is the 'day star' but the coming up of the 'sun'.

Does it refer to that time as day or the followers of Christ being of the day? There are many references to the first century being the night, with the coming of light with the NC, don't you think Fred?
Rom_13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

1Th_5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th_5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

When Jesus was there with them, it was "day", but then the night was coming again, since he was leaving. He was the light of the world. When he returned the full power of the light returned.
There was a time of night for sure for Christ said,
Joh_9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

It seems that that night must have passed to some extent or else the apostles could not have carried out the great commission.
1Th_5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

2Pe_1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The light of the NC is from within more than a general time of darkness, but I don't think we should press this analogy too far.


What think ye about the "Dark Ages"?
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Re: "A preterist response to futurism, with discussion encou

Postby fred » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:00 pm

gcdonner wrote:What think ye about the "Dark Ages"?


What is happening here, [previous post] is you are jumping from one picture to another. Or we could say, from one dimension to another.
The picture i'm painting...referring to, is where this time world is broken down into a time of 'night' and a time of 'day'. With the dawning...transition period a time of the overlapping of both. So we have to stay within that picture.

The OC was a time of night....a time of shadows. The day started, when Jesus the Christ began to preach his gospel. That was like the crack of dawn.... And, we should know from observing nature that even tho the sun is shining brightly, the reason it's dark is because the 'earth' is in the way. So mankind was not in a position to see that light. Not till their 'earth' rotated a bit more...
The sun broke over the horizon at AD 70. Night was officially over, and the day was fully come.
So this is a simple picture, of OC being 'night time' and the NC being 'day time' with a dawning period. Simple...yet vital and true in order to lay a proper foundation upon which to build.
Now. What kind of 'day' was it....this 'gospel day'? Well, the sun broke over the horizon. Bright light for a bit, but then the clouds started to move in. Got rather stormy for quite some time. Then the sun broke thru the clouds for a bit again. Then more clouds. Then a bit of sunshine.Then, the 'sun went down at noon'. Or we could say an eclipse took place. Things can get rather dark when a full eclipse takes place. All kinds of things happened during this 'day'. That eclipse just happened to be called the 'dark ages'. Then a bit of sunlight broke thru again. Then some more clouds/storms moved in. You know how dark it can get during a storm....??
Then, around evening time, the sun breaks thru the clouds once again, shining very, very brightly. So it's been quite a 'day'. As nature will teach us, just because it's 'day' does not mean the sun is shining brightly. All kinds of conditions can take place during a 'day'. Sometimes it can get almost as dark as night. A night with a brightly lit moon...that is.
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Re: "A preterist response to futurism, with discussion encou

Postby gcdonner » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:50 am

fred wrote:
gcdonner wrote:What think ye about the "Dark Ages"?


What is happening here, [previous post] is you are jumping from one picture to another. Or we could say, from one dimension to another.
The picture i'm painting...referring to, is where this time world is broken down into a time of 'night' and a time of 'day'. With the dawning...transition period a time of the overlapping of both. So we have to stay within that picture.

The OC was a time of night....a time of shadows. The day started, when Jesus the Christ began to preach his gospel. That was like the crack of dawn.... And, we should know from observing nature that even tho the sun is shining brightly, the reason it's dark is because the 'earth' is in the way. So mankind was not in a position to see that light. Not till their 'earth' rotated a bit more...
The sun broke over the horizon at AD 70. Night was officially over, and the day was fully come.
So this is a simple picture, of OC being 'night time' and the NC being 'day time' with a dawning period. Simple...yet vital and true in order to lay a proper foundation upon which to build.
Now. What kind of 'day' was it....this 'gospel day'? Well, the sun broke over the horizon. Bright light for a bit, but then the clouds started to move in. Got rather stormy for quite some time. Then the sun broke thru the clouds for a bit again. Then more clouds. Then a bit of sunshine.Then, the 'sun went down at noon'. Or we could say an eclipse took place. Things can get rather dark when a full eclipse takes place. All kinds of things happened during this 'day'. That eclipse just happened to be called the 'dark ages'. Then a bit of sunlight broke thru again. Then some more clouds/storms moved in. You know how dark it can get during a storm....??
Then, around evening time, the sun breaks thru the clouds once again, shining very, very brightly. So it's been quite a 'day'. As nature will teach us, just because it's 'day' does not mean the sun is shining brightly. All kinds of conditions can take place during a 'day'. Sometimes it can get almost as dark as night. A night with a brightly lit moon...that is.

Sooo, using your analogy (which is a little stretch from the bible IMO) the New Covenant didn't really bring the brightness that was proclaimed and didn't have the power to dispel the darkness? How does this fit with what the writer to the Hebrews said?
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they were tasting the powers and we are now in "the world to come", ie the dawning of the new day, what should we be experiencing?
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