Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

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Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby Stoltz13 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:37 pm

"I don’t think it does anybody any good when public employees are denigrated or vilified or their rights are infringed upon."
-President Barack Obama

The statement above, other being a strawman attack on those wanting to 'check' union power, seems inconsistent coming from a man who routinely vilifies hardworking Americans in various industries; a man who in some cases has infringed on rights with unconstitutional mandates and illegal moratoriums. Furthermore, it is (at the very least) ironic that Obama is willing to misrepresent Democratically elected public officials, essentially denigrating and vilifying them. If the President opposes this behavior, then he should stop demonizing good hardworking Americans who work in healthcare, insurance and petro industries; he should stop limiting their 'rights' through rules and regulations. He should stop vilifying American citizens for earning profits for their labor and wanting to keep what they earned.

Anyhow, on to union anti-government protests in Wisconsin and the obstruction of the Democratic process by a handful of legislators who refuse to do the job they were elected to do. Is anyone else disturbed by the seeming 'iron triangle' of big union special interests, lawmakers creating laws requiring payment of dues to union bosses and then being rewarded with campaign donations from the powerful union lobby? Is it fair that taxpayers are denied a right to negotiate public servant wages at a local level?

Strange as it may be, a sign of how far this country has shifted leftwardly, even the father of American socialism, FDR, thought collective bargaining for public servants was a "ridiculously" bad idea and for good reason.
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby Stoltz13 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:44 am

1. Union dues should be voluntary, and the state should not be used for collecting them.

2. Union certification should require a secret ballot to protect the individuals voting from intimidation.

3. Collective bargaining should not be used to force extravagant 'Cadillac' pension and health benefits on taxpayers.

Agree or disagree?
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby appleman2006 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:29 am

Agree very strongly. To me those are no brainers. I would add a fourth point and say that there should be no such thing as public service unions. In other words if you choose to work for the public sector you should have to give up your right to unionize and collective bargaining. History has proved that public sector unions due to the fact that they already have a monopoly simply do not work and hold us all ransom. Don't like those terms? Get a job in the private sector.
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby Stoltz13 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:05 pm

What you have in Wisconsin is public employees and a few Democrats conspiring against the will of the people's representatives. It is, like you said, a no brainer...we want representative democracy, not a dictatorship of public employee demands...
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby appleman2006 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:23 pm

And nobody mentions the fact that they are making the tea party protests look like a bunch of old ladies out on a Sunday afternoon picnic by comparison.
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby Stoltz13 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:04 am

appleman2006 wrote:And nobody mentions the fact that they are making the tea party protests look like a bunch of old ladies out on a Sunday afternoon picnic by comparison.
It is the typical lopsided and bias coverage; the 'objective' reporters looking only to prove what they believe already and then 'objective' people accept it as fact truly believing Tea Partiers are no different from the Taliban.

(Replace 'objective' with left-wing or liberal.)
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby Jeff » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:10 am

Stoltz13 wrote:What you have in Wisconsin is public employees and a few Democrats conspiring against the will of the people's representatives. It is, like you said, a no brainer...we want representative democracy, not a dictatorship of public employee demands...


I like that wording - "against the will of the people's representatives." Stoltz has apparently seen the polls that show strong public disapproval of Gov Walker Texas Ranger and his anti-union plans.

BTW, Stoltz, how do you feel about the Republicans in Washington conspiring against the will of President Obama? (the people's representative)
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby Jeff » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:15 am

appleman2006 wrote:And nobody mentions the fact that they are making the tea party protests look like a bunch of old ladies out on a Sunday afternoon picnic by comparison.


Do you have any evidence of this? Because I think it's ***. Are protesters bringing guns to the event? Shouting racist slurs? Gay-bashing? Violence against dissenters?
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby appleman2006 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:37 am

Jeff wrote:
Stoltz 13 wrote:What you have in Wisconsin is public employees and a few Democrats conspiring against the will of the people's representatives. It is, like you said, a no brainer...we want representative democracy, not a dictatorship of public employee demands...


I like that wording - "against the will of the people's representatives." Stoltz has apparently seen the polls that show strong public disapproval of Gov Walker Texas Ranger and his anti-union plans.

BTW, Stoltz, how do you feel about the Republicans in Washington conspiring against the will of President Obama? (the people's representative)

Little bit different. The Republicans are the people's representatives as well in Washington and are simply doing what they are elected to do. The Democrats in Wis. are in fact not doing what they were elected to do which is represent the people in Madison.

As to you second posts. I will try to keep this respectable. I am sure that there are many right wing protesters out their would have crossed the line of decency. I can definitely say though that here in Canada left wing demonstrators are almost always more violent, more demanding and more in your face. That is a historical fact up here and cannot be denied. Within the first few months of a right wing mayor being elected in Toronto there have been a number of occasions where protesters have crossed the line of decency whereas in the 8 years of an extreme left wing mayor I cannot remember that happening one time. Back in the Rae days in Ontario there were a number of mass dinner hour protests at Queens Park but always very respectful and peaceful. within months of Harris being elected the protests got out of hand and abusive.

Whether you like it or not historically left wing protests at least here in Canada are much more violent and abusive. And when I compare the mass tea party protests in Washington to what I saw in Madison the last few weeks I see some of the same patterns.

Next time just call me out on what I say Jeff rather then describing what I say as something repulsive. I think we can treat each other with respect on here even when we disagree.
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby Jeff » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:59 am

appleman2006 wrote: Little bit different. The Republicans are the people's representatives as well in Washington and are simply doing what they are elected to do. The Democrats in Wis. are in fact not doing what they were elected to do which is represent the people in Madison.


Perhaps you aren't aware of this, but public opinion in Wisconsin (and the country at large) is firmly against Gov Walker's plans. Democratic senators are doing the only thing they can to represent the will of the people. How is this different from Republicans in Washington using the filibuster to delay legislation? It's not.

As to you second posts. I will try to keep this respectable. I am sure that there are many right wing protesters out their would have crossed the line of decency. I can definitely say though that here in Canada left wing demonstrators are almost always more violent, more demanding and more in your face. That is a historical fact up here and cannot be denied. Within the first few months of a right wing mayor being elected in Toronto there have been a number of occasions where protesters have crossed the line of decency whereas in the 8 years of an extreme left wing mayor I cannot remember that happening one time. Back in the Rae days in Ontario there were a number of mass dinner hour protests at Queens Park but always very respectful and peaceful. within months of Harris being elected the protests got out of hand and abusive.


What does this have to do with the lie I called you out on? You specifically said that the behavior of the protesters in Wisconsin was much worse than the tea party protests, then when I challenged you for evidence, you give me personal vignettes about the historical behavior of protesters in Canada???

Next time just call me out on what I say Jeff rather then describing what I say as something repulsive. I think we can treat each other with respect on here even when we disagree.


I will back off my "bull crap" statement when you can show me that it is not true. I respect you, Mr Appleman, but I can't respect your "facts."
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby Bootstrap » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:03 am

appleman2006 wrote:Next time just call me out on what I say Jeff rather then describing what I say as something repulsive. I think we can treat each other with respect on here even when we disagree.


I agree. 100%.

appleman2006 wrote:Whether you like it or not historically left wing protests at least here in Canada are much more violent and abusive. And when I compare the mass tea party protests in Washington to what I saw in Madison the last few weeks I see some of the same patterns.


I think that was true in Germany too, when I lived there. But I don't think it's true of the United States today. The United States is not Canada.

Obviously, both partisan sides in the States are throwing out their propaganda on these issues, so I do think we should use the most objective sources we can find to make these comparisons, and not rely on the summaries coming from advocacy groups or advocacy journalists.

I've been able to find objective data on terrorism, but not on the protests. When it comes to terrorism, the FBI says there's a lot more vandalism coming from eco-terrorists and animal rights groups, but a lot more violence directed toward human beings coming from right-wing extremists.

appleman2006 wrote:Little bit different. The Republicans are the people's representatives as well in Washington and are simply doing what they are elected to do. The Democrats in Wis. are in fact not doing what they were elected to do which is represent the people in Madison.


Isn't that what they are doing?

http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2011/03/wisconsin-closely-divided-but-against.html

On the biggest picture question: do you side with Governor Walker or do you side with the public employee unions 51% of voters in the state go with the unions to 47% who stand with the Governor. On another broad question: do you side more with Governor Walker or with the Democrats in the state Senate, 52% of voters go with the Senate Democrats to 47% who go for Walker. And perhaps the clearest indication that Walker has lost a majority of the voters in the state in this conflict, if only a narrow majority, is that 52% of voters now disapprove of him to only 46% who like the job he's doing. Those numbers are basically the inverse of last fall's election results.

When it comes to broader questions about rights for public employees in Wisconsin the margins are less narrow. 57% of voters think that workers should have the right to collectively bargain for wages, benefits, and working environment rules compared to only 37% who think they shouldn't have those rights. And 55% of voters think that public employees should have at least the same rights they have now, if not more, compared to only 41% who believe they should have fewer rights.


That seems consistent with other polls I've seen of Wisconsin voters.
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby RobertM » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:05 am

Jeff wrote:Perhaps you aren't aware of this, but public opinion in Wisconsin (and the country at large) is firmly against Gov Walker's plans.

Jeff, What is the Governor's plans? Have you read the legislation? If so, could you please explain it to me. I am not really up on all the details. All I know is the state is broke and has to cut spending. What other ways could the state cut spending without lay offs?
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby RobertM » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:11 am

On the biggest picture question: do you side with Governor Walker or do you side with the public employee unions 51% of voters in the state go with the unions to 47% who stand with the Governor. On another broad question: do you side more with Governor Walker or with the Democrats in the state Senate, 52% of voters go with the Senate Democrats to 47% who go for Walker. And perhaps the clearest indication that Walker has lost a majority of the voters in the state in this conflict, if only a narrow majority, is that 52% of voters now disapprove of him to only 46% who like the job he's doing. Those numbers are basically the inverse of last fall's election results.

If I remember right, only about 30% of the people supported the American Revolution. I also think most people did not support the abolishment of slavery. This is he reason the founders created a republic and not a democracy. They knew that public opinion was not a good way to govern. In a republic, people are elected to make the hard choices that HAVE to be made and give it time to see if it works out. If not, then they can be replaced at the next election. Polls do not always tell us what is right, but what the public's understanding or greediness in the situation.
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby Jeff » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:13 am

So Appleman, are you going to come back and address my question, or did you just want to whine about me saying "crap?"
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Re: Union anti-government/democracy protests in Wisconsin

Postby Jeff » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:17 am

RobertM wrote:
Jeff wrote:Perhaps you aren't aware of this, but public opinion in Wisconsin (and the country at large) is firmly against Gov Walker's plans.

Jeff, What is the Governor's plans? Have you read the legislation? If so, could you please explain it to me. I am not really up on all the details. All I know is the state is broke and has to cut spending. What other ways could the state cut spending without lay offs?


The contentious part of the Gov's plan is to remove collective bargaining rights from public sector employees. I have yet to see anyone explain how this will save the state 1 penny.
Ironically, Wisconsin is actually quite healthy fiscally.
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