Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby Bill Rushby » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:38 am

When I posted about the Primitive Methodists, I didn't realize that you had already referenced them!
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby PaulJD » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:01 pm

Ok, I don't have time to think much about these things.

Just wanted to mention, that the conservative Wesleyans who endorsed the second definite work, and Wesley's desire for plain dress, are quite different from todays Wesleyan Methodists.
Some more conservative Weselyan Methodist related groups are:

Allegheny Wesleyan Methodists
Bible Methodists of Alabama and TN.
National Association of Weselyan Holiness churches
Bible Missionary Church(the largest, Conservative Church of the Nazarene)
Bible Holiness Church
Free Holiness churches

Some of these, like Bible Missionary Church would have a lot of stricter practices like not allowing internet in the home.

Now, most of these would accept the remarried. The National Association of Wesleyan Holiness Churches would not, but Bible Missionary does.

They push the second definite work of grace, believe significantly different than Mennos.

They believe the hair is the only covering, though I do know there are a few out there who wear a cloth.

If you look at their Bible school pictures, there are obviously occasionally a Menno with head covering attending(Their bible schools are open for anyone)

They, most of them believe women can be pastors. This comes from Phoebe Palmer, the one who pushed the second work and women freedom in the Free Methodist church of the 1840's-70's, they most endorse her views on the second work and take her as an influential person in their history.

Many of them have been/are anti-beard, like some OO Mennos. Obviously this came from US christian culture of the 1950's+-.

Hmm, guess il stop here. :)
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby PaulJD » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:28 am

Ok, to add to my above post:

The Weselyan Methodists split out of the larger Methodist movement in the late 1800's.
So did their associates, the Church of God(Holiness) and Church of the Nazarene.

The groups I mentioned in my last post split in the 1950's out of the WM and CN when they were apostasizing/allowing jewelry, TV, womens pants,etc.

Now, COG(Holiness) stayed conservative and I don't believe they split in the 1950's.

I believe the Free Holiness churches split from the Free Methodists, but not sure when, probably in the early 1900's.

These conservative Weselyan Holiness churches run some big Bible schools, interdenominationally, like Gods Bible School & College, Cincinnati, OH, and Hobe Sound BS&C, FL. Bible Missionary tries to stay separated from the rest, and runs their own schools separately.

Also, my Church of God churches are Wesleyan in doctrine and practice, but have different roots, different eschatology, and are separate, and in their minds- superior, kind of like the Holdeman Mennos have historically been in Menno circles.
Here is my recent post on them:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=15115&start=15#p428680
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby BluenoseAl » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:21 pm

OK, so if I were to remove the word "Wesleyan" from this conversation, would it make a difference in terms of theology? How has the theology of the Methodist Episcopal denomination and its successor, the United Methodist Church, diverged from Wesley's original conception of Methodism?

The reason I inserted "Wesleyan" in the first place was to maintain a focus on Methodist theology as conceived by Wesley, rather than criticism of the United Methodist denomination.

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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby PaulJD » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:43 pm

BluenoseAl wrote:OK, so if I were to remove the word "Wesleyan" from this conversation, would it make a difference in terms of theology? How has the theology of the Methodist Episcopal denomination and its successor, the United Methodist Church, diverged from Wesley's original conception of Methodism?

The reason I inserted "Wesleyan" in the first place was to maintain a focus on Methodist theology as conceived by Wesley, rather than criticism of the United Methodist denomination.

-Al

My understanding, briefly, is that the US Methodist movement split in the early 1800's along the lines of the city dwellers and the rural dwellers. The city dwellers wanted a more refined style of worship, order, more like the Anglicans, and became the UMC.

The rural dwellers were more revivalistic, were more likely to have more lively less formal worship services, school house meetings, etc, and became the Free Methodists and others, some who later became the late 1800's Weselyan Methodists/Church of Nazarene, and those who followed the Phoebe Palmer beliefs of the mid 1800's... These people would have been more like Anabaptists in thought/practice than the city dweller/UMC people of the 1800's.

Il have to look for a good article on the subject to link to..., Ive read some good stuff on this history, so I know it's online somewhere.
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby Swift » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:51 pm

I'm a member and ordained minister in the Bible Missionary Church, a small conservative holiness denomination which left the Church of the Nazarene in 1955. A valuable book for researching Mennonite influence on the American and subsequent Conservative Holiness Movement, is Radical Righteousness by Wallace Thornton. http://wallacethornton.com/radical-righteousness/
Interestingly, I came upon your discussion and this website by googling Wesleyan Mennonite. We have an Amish Mennonite community here in Stoddard county Missouri. This is a branch of the Beachy Amish and is called Ambassador Mennonites. Here's my latest blog entry in which I mention my contact with Old Order Mennonites. From my research, I think the Brethren In Christ Church is the only Wesleyan Mennonite denomination, but Wesleyan Holiness has certainly influenced evangelical Mennonites and vice versa.
http://www.dailystatesman.com/blogs/1576/entry/54106/
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby Swift » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:41 pm

PaulJD wrote:Ok, to add to my above post:

The Weselyan Methodists split out of the larger Methodist movement in the late 1800's.
So did their associates, the Church of God(Holiness) and Church of the Nazarene.

The groups I mentioned in my last post split in the 1950's out of the WM and CN when they were apostasizing/allowing jewelry, TV, womens pants,etc.

Now, COG(Holiness) stayed conservative and I don't believe they split in the 1950's.

I believe the Free Holiness churches split from the Free Methodists, but not sure when, probably in the early 1900's.

These conservative Weselyan Holiness churches run some big Bible schools, interdenominationally, like Gods Bible School & College, Cincinnati, OH, and Hobe Sound BS&C, FL. Bible Missionary tries to stay separated from the rest, and runs their own schools separately.

Also, my Church of God churches are Wesleyan in doctrine and practice, but have different roots, different eschatology, and are separate, and in their minds- superior, kind of like the Holdeman Mennos have historically been in Menno circles.
Here is my recent post on them:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=15115&start=15#p428680



Actually, the Wesleyan Methodists left the Methodist Church in the 1848 over slavery. In 1968, they and the Pilgrim Holiness merged to become the Wesleyan Church. The Allegheny Conference of the Wesleyan Methodist church left because of that merger and the compromises which you mentioned. They kept the name Allegheny Wesleyan Methodists. Several other groups also left the parent groups. Some of these were called Bible methodists and Pilgrim Holiness. Wesleyan Holiness left the Bible Missionary Church in '59 over divorce and remarriage. My grandparents and parents left the Free Methodist church in 1957. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservati ... s_movement
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby BluenoseAl » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:59 pm

I have yet to grasp just what the "Free" in Free Methodist connotes. Care to explain?
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby Swift » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:19 pm

BluenoseAl wrote:I have yet to grasp just what the "Free" in Free Methodist connotes. Care to explain?
-Al


The Free Methodist Church began in 1860 as a result of two major problems some Methodist preachers of the Genesee Conference (Pennsylvania and New York) were addressing. Those two issues were slavery and the renting of church pews. The Methodist church of that time literally took the credentials of several of these preachers. Led by B.T. Roberts and John Wesley Redfield, the Free Methodist Church was organized in Pekin, New York. It also called for freedom of worship (without musical instruments until 1943) and freedom from alcohol and tobacco. Unfortunately, the Free Methodist Church joined the National Association of Evangelicals in the late 1940's. The drift and compromise was on. In 1951, the FMC did away with its ban on the wedding ring. Everything is now allowed! Thank God, my grandparents and parents came out! Here's a couple websites to check out. One is about the early history of the FMC and the other is a site I started as an archive for my grandfather's sermons.

http://westmorrisfm.org/index.php/about ... ist-church

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReedASwift/

Interestingly, the FMC at one time took a stand against war and militarism but endorsed the American side in WWII and even advertised ROTC in its colleges. If you read my first post on this forum, you may see that I differ from many in the Holiness Movement on the doctrine of non-resistance.
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby Swift » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:54 pm

Swift wrote:
PaulJD wrote:Ok, to add to my above post:

The Weselyan Methodists split out of the larger Methodist movement in the late 1800's.
So did their associates, the Church of God(Holiness) and Church of the Nazarene.

The groups I mentioned in my last post split in the 1950's out of the WM and CN when they were apostasizing/allowing jewelry, TV, womens pants,etc.

Now, COG(Holiness) stayed conservative and I don't believe they split in the 1950's.

I believe the Free Holiness churches split from the Free Methodists, but not sure when, probably in the early 1900's.

These conservative Weselyan Holiness churches run some big Bible schools, interdenominationally, like Gods Bible School & College, Cincinnati, OH, and Hobe Sound BS&C, FL. Bible Missionary tries to stay separated from the rest, and runs their own schools separately.

Also, my Church of God churches are Wesleyan in doctrine and practice, but have different roots, different eschatology, and are separate, and in their minds- superior, kind of like the Holdeman Mennos have historically been in Menno circles.
Here is my recent post on them:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=15115&start=15#p428680



Actually, the Wesleyan Methodists left the Methodist Church in the 1848 over slavery. In 1968, they and the Pilgrim Holiness merged to become the Wesleyan Church. The Allegheny Conference of the Wesleyan Methodist church left because of that merger and the compromises which you mentioned. They kept the name Allegheny Wesleyan Methodists. Several other groups also left the parent groups. Some of these were called Bible methodists and Pilgrim Holiness. Wesleyan Holiness left the Bible Missionary Church in '59 over divorce and remarriage. My grandparents and parents left the Free Methodist church in 1957. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservati ... s_movement


I found a website for you which may help BluenoseAl. Incidently, I checked out Free Holiness and the website I found seems to have no connection with the Free Methodist Church. The following website gives a history of some of the radical holiness groups which left the older denominations of the American Holiness Movement.

conservativeholiness.org/resources/Holiness+History+2.pptx‎
The site takes a long time to download. The two groups which left the FMC are Evangelical Wesleyan and United Holiness (Michigan). The latter merged with the Bible Methodist Church Connection of Michigan and call themselves Bible Methodist. A group left the UHC/Bible Methodists: Wesleyan Bible Church. Apparently there are no websites for these groups. There are websites for groups which use these names and have no connection.

I believe there is another Wesleyan type Mennonite body other than the Brethren in Christ. It is the Missionary Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary_Church No connection with the Bible Missionary Church of which I'm a member.
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby PaulJD » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:53 am

Welcome Swift to MD. Make yourself at home. :) Thanks for the explanations. I am from a small conservative Mennonite-leaning independent branch of the Wesleyan Holiness movement that is not exactly related to your branch, historically, most of what I know about your branch I either got from my Dad and aunt who used to visit a few BMC and other similar churches, or from a friend who grew up there, or from reading online.
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby PaulJD » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:04 am

Wesleyan Holiness has certainly influenced evangelical Mennonites and vice versa.

I do know that the founder of the branch of groups I come from (Church of God, Reformation/Anderson, Evening Light, Restoration), had significant contact with a group called evangelical mennonites in the late 1800's. Not long before he left the church he was with, he actually tried to get the evangelical mennonites and Church of God Winebrenner to merge, in the late 1870's.
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby PaulJD » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:16 am

Wesleyan Holiness left the Bible Missionary Church in '59 over divorce and remarriage.

National Association of Wesleyan Holiness churches? Could you tell me more about them? How many congregations are there? Do they still believe remarriage is not permitted? Are there any other related Wesleyan groups who believe like them on remarriage?

The remarriage issue would be one of the major things my (Church of God) branch of Holiness churches would differ from your church on. They would be conservative mennonite on that issue.

If you read my first post on this forum, you may see that I differ from many in the Holiness Movement on the doctrine of non-resistance.

How? I must have missed that. Do any of your/related Wesleyan groups believe in non-resistance?

---------------
Another thing my branch of the Holiness movement has historically been big on is not going to doctors/divine healing. Do any of your related groups lean that way?
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby PaulJD » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:32 am

Another thing, Swift. I was told that recently Bible Missionary churches banned internet from the home. Is that true?

How large is yall's membership? is it centrally unified, or is there a large variation in practice from congregation to congregation?

How do yall enforce yalls rules?(no TV, etc) Are they enforced among the membership, or just among the ministry and leave the membership to self-inspection?
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Re: Mennonite vs. Wesleyan Methodist Theology

Postby BluenoseAl » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:41 am

So, Swift, how far has the United Methodist Church and its theology really diverged from Methodism as John Wesley originally conceived it?

For those unfamiliar, "United Methodist" is a relatively recent name. It resulted from the 1968 merger of the Methodist Church and the Evangelical United Brethren Church. In my great great grandfather's day (ordained 1890, retired 1928), it was still known as the Methodist Episcopal Church. Today, the African Methodist Episcopal Church, which separated from the ME Church in 1816, still carries the name.

-Al
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